Does an A+3 Sealion = Axis victory?

[Young Grasshopper]

As it was pointed out earlier, 1 unit against 50 still has a possibility of winning. However, it was never the intention of this topic to argue the literal meaning of the question. I think Jen has made a valiant effort to prove the “possibility” of a successful sealion, and I think we can now focus on weather or not it is a “beneficial” strategy for the Axis.

[Omega1759]

You did not say what UK would build?

Okay, this assumes that planes take care of the Italian DD in 96, right?

With the Italians, I would sink the French Fleet and the Destroyer in 94. Consolidating everything in 95 seems too risky for the Italians as the British can counter it.

Gibraltar is well defended.

Would send 2 or 3 subs and planes sink the BB in 109, preferrably 3.

Would a destroyer and planes sink 104, that blocks the fleet on its way back to London.

I would move one of the subs from 106 to 123 if I have 2 of them in 106.

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

@jim010:

OK, then how about this?

sz111 to sz104
1 DD

sz111 to sz109
1 BB

sz109 to sz92
1 DD, 1 TT

sz91 to sz92
1 CA

sz98 to sz92
1 CA, 1 CV, 1 tac, 1 TT (load from Alx 1 tank, form Mal 1 inf to Gib)

sz98 to sz94
1 DD

Scotland to Gib
1 fht

Mal to Gib
1 fht

I’ll not bother with everything else, unless it impacts the defense of London.

[jim010]

So you conceed that if the axis are dedicated, London will fall.

I conceed nothing, as you have only demonstrated desparate tactics.  I will ignore future posts.

You did not say what UK would build?

9 inf, save $1

Would send 2 or 3 subs and planes sink the BB in 109, preferrably 3.

How many subs will you have?  Maybe there should be a DD with the BB in sz109 and use the cruiser to block?  Or we could buy the DD?

Would a destroyer and planes sink 104, that blocks the fleet on its way back to London.

That was my idea.

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

Then the question is how many would you build?

[Jennifer]

@Young:

As it was pointed out earlier, 1 unit against 50 still has a possibility of winning. However, it was never the intention of this topic to argue the literal meaning of the question. I think Jen has made a valiant effort to prove the “possibility” of a successful sealion, and I think we can now focus on weather or not it is a “beneficial” strategy for the Axis.

Agreed.  1 Submarine has the theoretical chance to sink 2 loaded aircraft carriers, 3 battleships and 7 destroyers, but the odds are well below the threshhold I established.

I, personally, do not believe that Sea Lion is “beneficial” for the Axis in either Alpha 2 or Alpha 3.  Less so in Alpha 3 due to more defending units and no objective for Germany.

[Axisplaya]

@Cmdr:

I, personally, do not believe that Sea Lion is “beneficial” for the Axis in either Alpha 2 .

Is this a joke ?

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

So you conceed that if the axis are dedicated, London will fall.

I conceed nothing, as you have only demonstrated desparate tactics.  I will ignore future posts.
I hardly consider 70% “desperate” tactics.  It is very hard to get better odds given the revised situation on the ground.  I actually think it would be only slightly easier to get better odds given Alpha 2.

You did not say what UK would build?

9 inf, save $1
That’s what I figured for round 1. Round 2 was 34 IPC for 9 Infantry, 1 Armor, Save 1.  Round 3 was (34 - 5 IPC NO lost to Italy, -6 CRD SZ 109, -2 CRD SZ 106, assumed only Alexandria and/or Gibraltar was taken, +1 saved) 22 IPC for 6 Infantry, Artillery.  Coupled with 3 Infantry, 3 Fighters mainland + fighter Malta + fighter Gibraltar + tactical SZ 98 + Infantry, Armor from Canada that gives England AT MOST:
*27 Infantry

• 1 Artillery
• 2 Armor
• 5 Fighters
• 1 Tactical Bomber
  To use on attack. Where all these half dozen armors came from I have no idea.  It has not been detailed.  Now, it is possible someone would give up 12 infantry for 6 more armor, but I don’t see how that improves the attack on Scotland, but I do see how it decimates the defense of Lonond.

Would send 2 or 3 subs and planes sink the BB in 109, preferrably 3.

Did you mean DD?  Yes, 2 Submarines, 3 Fighters, 3 Tactical Bombers is what I typically send to kill the Destroyer/Transport in SZ 109 with 2 Submarines hitting the Destroyer/Transport in SZ 109.  I send my other equipment that can reach to hit SZ 110 (to get the last destroyer and liberate my submarines from the threat of detection) and of course, something to hit SZ 112.  But then, that’s when I am NOT planning on destroying any chance I have to win by conducting Operation Sea Lion.

How many subs will you have?  Maybe there should be a DD with the BB in sz109 and use the cruiser to block?  Or we could buy the DD?
No Sea Lion?  Start with 5 Submarines, build 2 or 3 a round.  Goal: Destroy England’s economy, Destroy America’s economy.  USA is harder, with potentially 1 destroyer and 6 aircraft to attack any submarines in SZ 101. (Building a complex in Mexico seems to be something people wont do, so 6 is usually about all you would normally see there.)

Would a destroyer and planes sink 104, that blocks the fleet on its way back to London.

Yes.  With the change to Italy, the Strategic Bomber alone could clear SZ 104 opening the road for Germany as well.  One of the many, MANY things I like about Alpha 3.

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

Then the question is how many would you build?
2 For England, 1 for Canada, 1 for Africa, 10 for America, 5 in reserve off the coast of Gibraltar, 3 in SZ 105.  Total: 22 Submarines, I start with 5, in a perfect world, that means I need 17 more.  In a realistic world, I probably need 20 more due to casualties on Round 1.

Responses in red.

[jim010]

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

What would you have as Germany, and where?

[Jennifer]

@Axisplaya:

@Cmdr:

I, personally, do not believe that Sea Lion is “beneficial” for the Axis in either Alpha 2 .

Is this a joke ?

Every time I lost Alpha 2 with the axis it was due to Sea Lion.  So many resources were lost taking the stupid island, and the Americans were so readily able to convoy it to smitheriens destroying virtually all the money I got from it (leaving me with 5 IPC for the NO) that I never recouped my investment.  Each time Sea Lion was done (for me OR for my opponents) Russia was able to take the SE European territories and trade Hungary/Poland for a few rounds making them ridiculously impossible to beat.

I am not saying it didnt work out great for some people.  I’m sure it did.  First time it happened to me (aka the first game I ever played) I almost resigned because I figured that was game over. (I was talked out of it, my opponent said EVERYONE loses England before America gets in the war, so don’t take it personally.)

Since then, I learned there are two main strategies:

1. Cost the Germans so much resources they cannot recoup before Russia takes over the East and America CRDs teh West.
2. Evacuate and punish the Italians reducing them drastically allowing America to take the South, and CRD the West while Russia turtles up.

I prefer the former, but have seen the latter work as well.  In both cases, Germany loses any chance of victory (in my experience and opinion) that Sea Lion becomes their Achilles heel.  I would never recommend Sea Lion except on the very off chance that you can grab it with 3 transports worth of units and planes.  It’s just not worth it to me.  At least, not until Russia is secured and you are trying to figure out what to do with your income because there is nothing left to attack with your planes and ground forces, so you start dropping dozens of transports to get that last victory city.  IMHO.

[Axisplaya]

But, Jenn….If what you say was true, why in hell would they bother to make it more difficult in Alpha 3 ?

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

What would you have as Germany, and where?

Germany 1:

Buy(30)

• 1 Fighter
• 2 Submarines
• 1 Infantry
• 1 Artillery

Combat Moves:

SZ 106: 2 Submarines vs Transport, Destroyer
Submarine from SZ 117 to SZ 106
Submarine from SZ 118 to SZ 106

SZ 109: 2 Submarines, 3 Fighters, 3 Tactical Bombers, Strategic Bomber vs Transport, Destroyer Potential 3 Scrambled Fighters
Submarine from SZ 103 to SZ 109
Submarine from SZ 108 to SZ 109
Fighter from Holland to SZ 109
2 Fighters, 3 Tactical Bombers from W. Germany to SZ 109
Strategic From Germany to SZ 109

SZ 112: Submarine, Cruiser, Battleship vs 2 Cruisers

• Battleship, Cruiser from SZ 113 to SZ 112
• Submarine from SZ 124 to SZ 112

W. France: 4 Infantry, Artillery,  Fighter, Tactical vs 2 Infantry, Armor, Fighter

• 4 Infantry, Artillery, from Holland to W. France
• Tactical from Germany to W. France
• Fighter from Norway

France: 3 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 4 Mech, 5 Arm, Fighter, Tactical vs 7 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Armor, Fighter AA Gun

• Artillery, 3 ARmor from Holland to France
• 3 Infantry, Artillery, 4 Mech from W. Germany to France
• 2 Armor from S. Germany to France
• Fighter from Hungary to France
• Tacitcal from Poland to France

Yugoslavia: 9 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 3 Armor vs 5 Infantry

• 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery from S. Germany to Yugo
• 2 Infantry, Armor from Hungary to Yugo
• Infantry, Armor from Romania to Yugo
• Armor from Poland to Yugo

Finland: Infantry from Norway
Bulgaria: Infatnry from Romania

All Aircraft to land in Holland after fight, AA Guns from W. Germany to Holland.  Using an Alpha 2 map, but you can extrapolate from there, I think.

[Jennifer]

@Axisplaya:

But, Jenn….If what you say was true, why in hell would they bother to make it more difficult in Alpha 3 ?

Because Larry wants it to be.  /shrug.  I kind of like it being more difficult, always felt it strange that London fell so easily (easy as in most of the time, not in cost effectiveness) but I also always felt it was rather a bad tactic to take.

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

What would you have as Germany, and where?

Miscounted the Fighter/Tactical from the Far east, so I redirected them into the French territories and called off the attack on the British destroyer.  Just in case you’re wondering where it is on the above post.

[jim010]

Directed to OMEGA.

@jim010:

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

What would you have as Germany, and where?

[Jennifer]

Speaking of, why don’t you ever detail your moves?  You always want others to detail theirs so you can sit there and pick them apart, but we never seem to get counter moves from you.  Perhaps a one round build or something, but never a detailed round.

[jim010]

:roll:

That a fact?  What is this, then?

@jim010:

OK, then how about this?

sz111 to sz104
1 DD

sz111 to sz109
1 BB

sz109 to sz92
1 DD, 1 TT

sz91 to sz92
1 CA

sz98 to sz92
1 CA, 1 CV, 1 tac, 1 TT (load from Alx 1 tank, form Mal 1 inf to Gib)

sz98 to sz94
1 DD

Scotland to Gib
1 fht

Mal to Gib
1 fht

I’ll not bother with everything else, unless it impacts the defense of London.

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

:roll:

That a fact?  What is this, then?

@jim010:

OK, then how about this?

sz111 to sz104
1 DD

sz111 to sz109
1 BB

sz109 to sz92
1 DD, 1 TT

sz91 to sz92
1 CA

sz98 to sz92
1 CA, 1 CV, 1 tac, 1 TT (load from Alx 1 tank, form Mal 1 inf to Gib)

sz98 to sz94
1 DD

Scotland to Gib
1 fht

Mal to Gib
1 fht

I’ll not bother with everything else, unless it impacts the defense of London.

I didn’t say fact…thanks for posting something for us to pick at for a while. ^_~  Give us something to look at.

[JimmyHat]

@Cmdr:

@jim010:

So you conceed that if the axis are dedicated, London will fall.

I conceed nothing, as you have only demonstrated desparate tactics.  I will ignore future posts.
I hardly consider 70% “desperate” tactics.  It is very hard to get better odds given the revised situation on the ground.  I actually think it would be only slightly easier to get better odds given Alpha 2.

You did not say what UK would build?

9 inf, save $1
That’s what I figured for round 1. Round 2 was 34 IPC for 9 Infantry, 1 Armor, Save 1.  Round 3 was (34 - 5 IPC NO lost to Italy, -6 CRD SZ 109, -2 CRD SZ 106, assumed only Alexandria and/or Gibraltar was taken, +1 saved) 22 IPC for 6 Infantry, Artillery.  Coupled with 3 Infantry, 3 Fighters mainland + fighter Malta + fighter Gibraltar + tactical SZ 98 + Infantry, Armor from Canada that gives England AT MOST:
*27 Infantry

• 1 Artillery
• 2 Armor
• 5 Fighters
• 1 Tactical Bomber
  To use on attack. Where all these half dozen armors came from I have no idea.  It has not been detailed.  Now, it is possible someone would give up 12 infantry for 6 more armor, but I don’t see how that improves the attack on Scotland, but I do see how it decimates the defense of Lonond.

Would send 2 or 3 subs and planes sink the BB in 109, preferrably 3.

Did you mean DD?  Yes, 2 Submarines, 3 Fighters, 3 Tactical Bombers is what I typically send to kill the Destroyer/Transport in SZ 109 with 2 Submarines hitting the Destroyer/Transport in SZ 109.  I send my other equipment that can reach to hit SZ 110 (to get the last destroyer and liberate my submarines from the threat of detection) and of course, something to hit SZ 112.  But then, that’s when I am NOT planning on destroying any chance I have to win by conducting Operation Sea Lion.

How many subs will you have?  Maybe there should be a DD with the BB in sz109 and use the cruiser to block?  Or we could buy the DD?
No Sea Lion?  Start with 5 Submarines, build 2 or 3 a round.  Goal: Destroy England’s economy, Destroy America’s economy.  USA is harder, with potentially 1 destroyer and 6 aircraft to attack any submarines in SZ 101. (Building a complex in Mexico seems to be something people wont do, so 6 is usually about all you would normally see there.)

Would a destroyer and planes sink 104, that blocks the fleet on its way back to London.

Yes.  With the change to Italy, the Strategic Bomber alone could clear SZ 104 opening the road for Germany as well.  One of the many, MANY things I like about Alpha 3.

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

Then the question is how many would you build?
2 For England, 1 for Canada, 1 for Africa, 10 for America, 5 in reserve off the coast of Gibraltar, 3 in SZ 105.  Total: 22 Submarines, I start with 5, in a perfect world, that means I need 17 more.  In a realistic world, I probably need 20 more due to casualties on Round 1.

Responses in red.

Not sure why I bother, if you didn’t read the other thread who’s to say you’ll read this.  I’ll detail where those UK armor came from.

1 is from Alexandria, came by trn from the med to UK.  1 is purchased UK2 because we invaded Iraq, giving UK enough money to purchase 9 inf 1 arm.  I think the one from Canada came on UK3?  Jim knows better because he was the one using that battlemap thingy, so half of us had no idea what his moves were.

As for the assertion that Sealion was not a requirement to win the game in Alpha2.  I totally agree with you.  I don’t understand why people were so against the option of invasion?  It meant taking a huge risk, a land campaign in Russia G2 has a better chance of victory on the continent.  Not sure why the simple fix wasn’t to just allow Russia to declare on Germany if London falls.

[Jennifer]

@JimmyHat:

Not sure why I bother, if you didn’t read the other thread who’s to say you’ll read this.  I’ll detail where those UK armor came from.

1 is from Alexandria, came by trn from the med to UK.  1 is purchased UK2 because we invaded Iraq, giving UK enough money to purchase 9 inf 1 arm.  I think the one from Canada came on UK3?  Jim knows better because he was the one using that battlemap thingy, so half of us had no idea what his moves were.

As for the assertion that Sealion was not a requirement to win the game in Alpha2.  I totally agree with you.  I don’t understand why people were so against the option of invasion?  It meant taking a huge risk, a land campaign in Russia G2 has a better chance of victory on the continent.  Not sure why the simple fix wasn’t to just allow Russia to declare on Germany if London falls.

How are you getting the Alexandria one out without being murdered by the German fleet before you get there?
You can get one from Canada to England, I detailed that one already.  Transport from SZ 109 to SZ 106.  Next round, Transport from SZ 106 to SZ 109 land Infantry, Armor in England.
So you are bringing the Transport from SZ 39 to SZ 80 to land troops in Iraq and C. Persia to get a few more IPC out of England?  Doesn’t that leave India too weak to stop Japan?  Figured you needed those IPC from the  DEI. (I assume the transport hits C. Persia first, then helps to get Iraq the next round, because I think you said the SZ 98 transport books it for Gibraltar and hopes the Germans dont crush it and anything it comes with, right?)

I am not against allowing people to do Sea Lion.  I actually dont mind if my opponents do it to me (win or lose the defense) because I feel, (in my opinion, I think, etc) that it is a bad move, it costs too much than you get for it in Alpha 2.  In Alpha 3 it’s just worse for Germany, no objective, more defending units, etc.

I just wanted to demonstrate it was possible even with the changes to the rules.  Hell, people are now talking about not even bothering to defend England at all and going for a complex in Egypt.  That should make it easier to take England out.

[JimmyHat]

I would rather lose India than London, but yes that armor comes via the Med.  If you want to see how that fleet survives the Germ/Italian response, READ THE THREAD.

Also I don’t buy a CV for India, I build ground troops their first 2 rounds before even thinking of other builds.

[Jennifer]

@mantlefan:

@Cmdr:

So you conceed that if the axis are dedicated, London will fall.  That’s all I have been saying this whole time.  I never claimed it was a good idea.

As I have asked before, what is the point of doing that?

How exactly is proving that Sealion is possible (while ignoring whether or not it is a good idea if Germany wants to WIN)  NOT a waste of time?

1)  It was claimed that sea lion was not possible anymore.  Not necessarily by you or not by you, but it has been claimed.

2)  It was stated that the aa guns in England were too powerful.

3)  No one really asked if it was a GOOD idea, they only asked if it was possible.

Debating the possibility is not the same as endorsing something as a good idea.  I can debate the merits of polygamy and not endorse the practice myself. (In fact, I did debate it in my ethics class.)

Showing that Sea Lion is still possible also debunks the statement that the axis only have one path now and that choices were removed. (Which is nonsense really, there’s still KAF, KAnF, KInF, KRF and KukF).

---

Jimmy,

I dont buy a CV for India either, but I do move the one from SZ 98.  And I buy ground troops for like the first 3 rounds, probably 4…depending on how many destroyers I need to block the Japanese…