Does an A+3 Sealion = Axis victory?

[Daedelus]

@Stalingradski:

Omega - it’s nice to read a post that isn’t complaining, but thinking of the new possibilities!

We all have to reserve judgement, and think of the long-term effects of the new rules changes. And play, and learn, and then complain…  :)

Well said!

[Jennifer]

@mantlefan:

My other post got flagged as spam and deleted I guess because it was too long,

Anyways, the short of it is that with jen’s opening UK can neuter italy and still hold germany back to a g4, which germany will win handily, but Italy is set WAAAY back and Germany has a huge russia to face becuase more was needed for sealion.

Don’t Don’t Don’t……1,000,000x, don’t forget that the Ger NO for holding UK is gone. That’s huge in factoring the viability of the strat

I never claimed that holding Italy was an option or not an option.  I only claimed that Sea Lion was possible.

I realize there is no NO there any longer, I don’t care.  My stated objective is not to actually conduct Sea Lion, it is to prove it is possible to complete on G4.  I have done so.  As I said, I dont care if England has an Infantry and Artillery ready to take it back and I have no units between a Russian tank in E. Poland and Berlin, I only want to prove you can take London by Germany Round 4.  It is a very fanatical statement for a reason.  I want all blinders on and only to focus on one objective: London.  Nothing else matters.  I dont care if I lose the game.  Success is taking London.  Only London.  Have I said it enough?  Probably not: NO OTHER SITUATION ON THE BOARD MATTERS AS LONG AS LONDON FALLS 51% OF THE TIME OR BETTER, PREFERABLY 70% OR BETTER.

[Jennifer]

@JimmyHat:

The way she touted that America Pacific strategy, I’m starting to think Jenn usually plays Allies in her home games?  If so, I would use this opportunity to address everyone that they should try and vary their faction side from game to game.  I personally use chance to decide the power(s) I’ll be.  By playing only one side you fail to see the reverse side of the coin, your thinking becomes linear and it can affect your ability to see the viability of incoming attacks.(tactics and strategies you are not familiar with)

Any ideas Mantlefan as to how to adjust my G1 opening for Alpha3?  Perhaps sending more aircraft against Normandy and have those ground units hit Paris?  The problem with this is that I like to have additional heavy units on the coast after G1 to threaten a small landing G2.

I actually switch and take turns on both sides.

Remember, I don’t care what else happens on the board.  If I have to suicide some Italians into England to kill off that one critical infantryman or not, I’ll do it to get my odds.  If it costs me every darn plane, man, artillery gun, fleet ship and capitol on the board, the goal is to show that London can and will fall.

And yes, I would recommend a fighter/tactical to Normandy so you can have more armor for Paris.  You dont really need to take Normandy, your goal is to kill the British fighter.  The land is a nice bonus.

[jim010]

Then the discussion is over as there is no realistic tactics involved.

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

Then the discussion is over as there is no realistic tactics involved.

So you conceed that if the axis are dedicated, London will fall.  That’s all I have been saying this whole time.  I never claimed it was a good idea.  Remember, I have always claimed that it is far wiser and more efficient to use 2 submarines to remove all that Income from England than it is to blow hundreds of IPCs trying to take the darn thing.  I believe the same is true in Alpha 2, with the exception that you need more Submarines.

I’d also wager few thought to use Italian units to smash England a little to weaken them up. (A very unrealistic aspect of the game.)  3 transports should get in range easily by then, with some warships to clear the way (allowing Germany to shorebombard as well).  When it comes to the defense of England, a lot hinges on one or two defending units.  Take out 1 or 2 of those AA Guns (thus removing 3-6 AA Shots) and you drastically alter the picture.  If England takes infantry, then you remove 2-4 punch which is also significant (since they are down 2 units that actually defend.)

[jim010]

Your wasting my time …

[Young Grasshopper]

As it was pointed out earlier, 1 unit against 50 still has a possibility of winning. However, it was never the intention of this topic to argue the literal meaning of the question. I think Jen has made a valiant effort to prove the “possibility” of a successful sealion, and I think we can now focus on weather or not it is a “beneficial” strategy for the Axis.

[Omega1759]

You did not say what UK would build?

Okay, this assumes that planes take care of the Italian DD in 96, right?

With the Italians, I would sink the French Fleet and the Destroyer in 94. Consolidating everything in 95 seems too risky for the Italians as the British can counter it.

Gibraltar is well defended.

Would send 2 or 3 subs and planes sink the BB in 109, preferrably 3.

Would a destroyer and planes sink 104, that blocks the fleet on its way back to London.

I would move one of the subs from 106 to 123 if I have 2 of them in 106.

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

@jim010:

OK, then how about this?

sz111 to sz104
1 DD

sz111 to sz109
1 BB

sz109 to sz92
1 DD, 1 TT

sz91 to sz92
1 CA

sz98 to sz92
1 CA, 1 CV, 1 tac, 1 TT (load from Alx 1 tank, form Mal 1 inf to Gib)

sz98 to sz94
1 DD

Scotland to Gib
1 fht

Mal to Gib
1 fht

I’ll not bother with everything else, unless it impacts the defense of London.

[jim010]

So you conceed that if the axis are dedicated, London will fall.

I conceed nothing, as you have only demonstrated desparate tactics.  I will ignore future posts.

You did not say what UK would build?

9 inf, save $1

Would send 2 or 3 subs and planes sink the BB in 109, preferrably 3.

How many subs will you have?  Maybe there should be a DD with the BB in sz109 and use the cruiser to block?  Or we could buy the DD?

Would a destroyer and planes sink 104, that blocks the fleet on its way back to London.

That was my idea.

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

Then the question is how many would you build?

[Jennifer]

@Young:

As it was pointed out earlier, 1 unit against 50 still has a possibility of winning. However, it was never the intention of this topic to argue the literal meaning of the question. I think Jen has made a valiant effort to prove the “possibility” of a successful sealion, and I think we can now focus on weather or not it is a “beneficial” strategy for the Axis.

Agreed.  1 Submarine has the theoretical chance to sink 2 loaded aircraft carriers, 3 battleships and 7 destroyers, but the odds are well below the threshhold I established.

I, personally, do not believe that Sea Lion is “beneficial” for the Axis in either Alpha 2 or Alpha 3.  Less so in Alpha 3 due to more defending units and no objective for Germany.

[Axisplaya]

@Cmdr:

I, personally, do not believe that Sea Lion is “beneficial” for the Axis in either Alpha 2 .

Is this a joke ?

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

So you conceed that if the axis are dedicated, London will fall.

I conceed nothing, as you have only demonstrated desparate tactics.  I will ignore future posts.
I hardly consider 70% “desperate” tactics.  It is very hard to get better odds given the revised situation on the ground.  I actually think it would be only slightly easier to get better odds given Alpha 2.

You did not say what UK would build?

9 inf, save $1
That’s what I figured for round 1. Round 2 was 34 IPC for 9 Infantry, 1 Armor, Save 1.  Round 3 was (34 - 5 IPC NO lost to Italy, -6 CRD SZ 109, -2 CRD SZ 106, assumed only Alexandria and/or Gibraltar was taken, +1 saved) 22 IPC for 6 Infantry, Artillery.  Coupled with 3 Infantry, 3 Fighters mainland + fighter Malta + fighter Gibraltar + tactical SZ 98 + Infantry, Armor from Canada that gives England AT MOST:
*27 Infantry

• 1 Artillery
• 2 Armor
• 5 Fighters
• 1 Tactical Bomber
  To use on attack. Where all these half dozen armors came from I have no idea.  It has not been detailed.  Now, it is possible someone would give up 12 infantry for 6 more armor, but I don’t see how that improves the attack on Scotland, but I do see how it decimates the defense of Lonond.

Would send 2 or 3 subs and planes sink the BB in 109, preferrably 3.

Did you mean DD?  Yes, 2 Submarines, 3 Fighters, 3 Tactical Bombers is what I typically send to kill the Destroyer/Transport in SZ 109 with 2 Submarines hitting the Destroyer/Transport in SZ 109.  I send my other equipment that can reach to hit SZ 110 (to get the last destroyer and liberate my submarines from the threat of detection) and of course, something to hit SZ 112.  But then, that’s when I am NOT planning on destroying any chance I have to win by conducting Operation Sea Lion.

How many subs will you have?  Maybe there should be a DD with the BB in sz109 and use the cruiser to block?  Or we could buy the DD?
No Sea Lion?  Start with 5 Submarines, build 2 or 3 a round.  Goal: Destroy England’s economy, Destroy America’s economy.  USA is harder, with potentially 1 destroyer and 6 aircraft to attack any submarines in SZ 101. (Building a complex in Mexico seems to be something people wont do, so 6 is usually about all you would normally see there.)

Would a destroyer and planes sink 104, that blocks the fleet on its way back to London.

Yes.  With the change to Italy, the Strategic Bomber alone could clear SZ 104 opening the road for Germany as well.  One of the many, MANY things I like about Alpha 3.

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

Then the question is how many would you build?
2 For England, 1 for Canada, 1 for Africa, 10 for America, 5 in reserve off the coast of Gibraltar, 3 in SZ 105.  Total: 22 Submarines, I start with 5, in a perfect world, that means I need 17 more.  In a realistic world, I probably need 20 more due to casualties on Round 1.

Responses in red.

[jim010]

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

What would you have as Germany, and where?

[Jennifer]

@Axisplaya:

@Cmdr:

I, personally, do not believe that Sea Lion is “beneficial” for the Axis in either Alpha 2 .

Is this a joke ?

Every time I lost Alpha 2 with the axis it was due to Sea Lion.  So many resources were lost taking the stupid island, and the Americans were so readily able to convoy it to smitheriens destroying virtually all the money I got from it (leaving me with 5 IPC for the NO) that I never recouped my investment.  Each time Sea Lion was done (for me OR for my opponents) Russia was able to take the SE European territories and trade Hungary/Poland for a few rounds making them ridiculously impossible to beat.

I am not saying it didnt work out great for some people.  I’m sure it did.  First time it happened to me (aka the first game I ever played) I almost resigned because I figured that was game over. (I was talked out of it, my opponent said EVERYONE loses England before America gets in the war, so don’t take it personally.)

Since then, I learned there are two main strategies:

1. Cost the Germans so much resources they cannot recoup before Russia takes over the East and America CRDs teh West.
2. Evacuate and punish the Italians reducing them drastically allowing America to take the South, and CRD the West while Russia turtles up.

I prefer the former, but have seen the latter work as well.  In both cases, Germany loses any chance of victory (in my experience and opinion) that Sea Lion becomes their Achilles heel.  I would never recommend Sea Lion except on the very off chance that you can grab it with 3 transports worth of units and planes.  It’s just not worth it to me.  At least, not until Russia is secured and you are trying to figure out what to do with your income because there is nothing left to attack with your planes and ground forces, so you start dropping dozens of transports to get that last victory city.  IMHO.

[Axisplaya]

But, Jenn….If what you say was true, why in hell would they bother to make it more difficult in Alpha 3 ?

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

What would you have as Germany, and where?

Germany 1:

Buy(30)

• 1 Fighter
• 2 Submarines
• 1 Infantry
• 1 Artillery

Combat Moves:

SZ 106: 2 Submarines vs Transport, Destroyer
Submarine from SZ 117 to SZ 106
Submarine from SZ 118 to SZ 106

SZ 109: 2 Submarines, 3 Fighters, 3 Tactical Bombers, Strategic Bomber vs Transport, Destroyer Potential 3 Scrambled Fighters
Submarine from SZ 103 to SZ 109
Submarine from SZ 108 to SZ 109
Fighter from Holland to SZ 109
2 Fighters, 3 Tactical Bombers from W. Germany to SZ 109
Strategic From Germany to SZ 109

SZ 112: Submarine, Cruiser, Battleship vs 2 Cruisers

• Battleship, Cruiser from SZ 113 to SZ 112
• Submarine from SZ 124 to SZ 112

W. France: 4 Infantry, Artillery,  Fighter, Tactical vs 2 Infantry, Armor, Fighter

• 4 Infantry, Artillery, from Holland to W. France
• Tactical from Germany to W. France
• Fighter from Norway

France: 3 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 4 Mech, 5 Arm, Fighter, Tactical vs 7 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Armor, Fighter AA Gun

• Artillery, 3 ARmor from Holland to France
• 3 Infantry, Artillery, 4 Mech from W. Germany to France
• 2 Armor from S. Germany to France
• Fighter from Hungary to France
• Tacitcal from Poland to France

Yugoslavia: 9 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 3 Armor vs 5 Infantry

• 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery from S. Germany to Yugo
• 2 Infantry, Armor from Hungary to Yugo
• Infantry, Armor from Romania to Yugo
• Armor from Poland to Yugo

Finland: Infantry from Norway
Bulgaria: Infatnry from Romania

All Aircraft to land in Holland after fight, AA Guns from W. Germany to Holland.  Using an Alpha 2 map, but you can extrapolate from there, I think.

[Jennifer]

@Axisplaya:

But, Jenn….If what you say was true, why in hell would they bother to make it more difficult in Alpha 3 ?

Because Larry wants it to be.  /shrug.  I kind of like it being more difficult, always felt it strange that London fell so easily (easy as in most of the time, not in cost effectiveness) but I also always felt it was rather a bad tactic to take.

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

What would you have as Germany, and where?

Miscounted the Fighter/Tactical from the Far east, so I redirected them into the French territories and called off the attack on the British destroyer.  Just in case you’re wondering where it is on the above post.

[jim010]

Directed to OMEGA.

@jim010:

I would keep the rest of my fleet in 112 and add 3 subs to 110. I would not build many transports on G2, would probably add one plane and ground troops with my 70 IPCs.

What would you have as Germany, and where?

[Jennifer]

Speaking of, why don’t you ever detail your moves?  You always want others to detail theirs so you can sit there and pick them apart, but we never seem to get counter moves from you.  Perhaps a one round build or something, but never a detailed round.