German attack on USSR Northern Coast

[jspeedie]

I have a question regarding a possible German attack.

I have yet to play a full game of A&A Global I am unclear of all the rules but I have been looking at the map and noticed something interesting…

If the German player attempts to do Sealion (or even pretends to do so) and has a few transports available, could he not potentially attack the USSR by bringing his North Sea fleet in SZ 112 to SZ 127 and unloading a number of units in Karelia, Novogrod, Archangel, or Nenetsia? (could this be possible as a result of the naval base?) If not in one turn then in 2.

The Nenetsia attack is very interesting. If the germans can land a few tanks behind the main Soviet lines, wouldn’t he have the potential to Blitz through the Soviet territories? If he stayed out of range of Soviet forces (or at least large Soviet Forces) this could be devastating to the USSR.

While leaving the tanks in behind Soviet lines would be suicidal they could eather a) be a nuisance for Soviet force who need to bring troops back from the front lines to fight them off or b) drive right into China’s backside eating up their precious resources helping Japan or push the tanks (likely tanks because they can move the furthest the quickest) all the way into the middle east or make a push, a likely suicide mission towards Stalingrad from the backside.

This seems like a unorthodox plan, and surely the Soviet player would not see the baltic fleet being used to land and attack Nenetsia and eat up IPC’s in the backcountry!  :-o

[Robbernosky]

Interesting, Germany buys 9 transports it’s second turn, then sneak attack into Novgorod!

[special forces]

Once i had this happen to me, Germany taking Leningrad behind my back, it was painful and i should have seen it coming. Won’t ever happen again.

Downside for Germany of the Nenetsia thing is that their fleet is totally out of position for the next 2 turns.

[Cdr_Ian]

Just get your bombers out and pound the german ports as the uk. On the strategy above for the germans you could reinforce those transported units from norway and remember finland is pro axis so thats more units!!!

[special forces]

Or sink all their transporters while they’re up North (if poorly or not defended).

I think the trouble is, with a threat for Sealion, UK can’t afford to lose any aircrafts in bombing a naval base… and how many bombers do they have? Not too many.

[jspeedie]

Another thought is that if the German player has successfully completed Operation Sealion, he could position his troops in Scotland, and quickly transport them behind Soviet lines in the North.

My thinking is, if the Germans have completed Sealion, chances are the Soviets are on Germany’s borders with massive amounts of troops.

The transport attack in the North may buy Germany enough time to rebuild its army on the continent. By attacking the Soviets from behind, it forces them to take units off their front lines, to counter a German threat to Moscow, or any other of the Victory cities.

Also if you were attacking just Novograd, I think it would be better just to attack through the Baltic Sea. (protects your units)

[special forces]

@jspedz:

Another thought is that if the German player has successfully completed Operation Sealion, he could position his troops in Scotland, and quickly transport them behind Soviet lines in the North.

My thinking is, if the Germans have completed Sealion, chances are the Soviets are on Germany’s borders with massive amounts of troops.

The transport attack in the North may buy Germany enough time to rebuild its army on the continent. By attacking the Soviets from behind, it forces them to take units off their front lines, to counter a German threat to Moscow, or any other of the Victory cities.

Also if you were attacking just Novograd, I think it would be better just to attack through the Baltic Sea. (protects your units)

It is very likely that before Russia is in the war, they will move their battleship to SZ114, blocking a sudden attack through the Baltic Sea. So you may not have that option.
This makes going the Nordic route a good alternative if you want to capture Novgorod by surprise (which, with an unsuspecting Russian player might even be badly defended since the battleship is blocking the obvious route).
The big plus for Germany in capturing is that the next turn you get to use their harbor, making logistics and movement alot more easy. that is, if you can keep it until the next turn, of course.

As for taking units away from the frontline, that will strongly depend on the number of German forces in Nenetsia. Their last (and next) purchase might (should) be sufficient to get that under control.

Edit: then again, since you talk about a post-Sealion thing, they might already be at war and the battleship could already be sunk.

[special forces]

I was wondering, are there any Russian players here that had the Nenetsia thing happen to them?
And if that turned out lethal, did they, in their next game, buy a Russian destroyer (turn 1) to block the northern route?

[Gargantua]

It only works in GLOBAL.

Europe - it accomplishes nothing.

[rocknroll]

some time ago i had this plan as following:

the discussion about it you can find here:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=20472.0

it is not absolutely clear-cut, but i think worthwhile thinking about. at the time it was made there was only OOB-rule in action. maybe it works better with alpha 2+ since fighters can scramble from any coastal territory with an airbase in it.

but, i think this one can be optimized to a real bad strategy, bad for russia, of course! :D

let us assume the britisch fleet is sunk, france conquered. the G1-build is three transports and a destroyer acompanying the fleet in sea zone 112 (Battleship, cruiser, transport). this all sums up to a considerable force able to threat the uk and russia at the same time, hoping the british is bulding up a home defence with more infantry than fleet components.

If you build a naval base in finland in G2, is it possible to use it in the baltic sea sea zone 115 as well as in sea zone 127. i am trying to plot a shuck-strategy from western germany to russia in the north sake of widening the frontline deep into the russian north.

instead of trying a sea-lion you go to finland via the baltic sea with the complete fleet in G2 buying mostly infantry with some artillery and a naval base in finland! (and subs for naval “defence”), return to sea zone 112 in G3 building the same as in G2, you can land in G4 in northern russia (novgorod, karelia, archangelsk, nenetsia).

in G1 there come two infantry to norway with the first transport. finland gets activated by the two infantry originated from norway, counts up to six infantry. in G2 more eight (maybe a tank, artillery etc.) to finland. in G3 more eight troops from germany to norway with the fleet on the way back from finland. in G4 once again, but this time to novgorod!
in total: 32 troops in scandinavia! (23/24 in karelia etc., eight in norway)

If you attack in G3 to conquer karelia and vyborg germany should have 16 troops available to achieve this. meanwhile it should be clear to conquer and trying to hold the baltic states, just for the tanks getting trough there to novgorod in G4 etc. therefor the massive infantry builds in G1 and G2.
at the same time germany should be able to bring in 15/16 troops to novgorod from the north, eight with the fleet plus troops from the baltic states, mech infantry, tanks, airplanes (all of them).
russia can sum up not more than 20 infantry, three planes (two fighters, one tactical bomber), three artillery, some tanks (depends on russian buys).

what do you think? is it a good idea or just waste of material?
what counter-strategies could be applied? is the building of a naval base in finland too obvious?
what specific buys for germany, the uk and for russia would you suggest? etc.
how should italy assist? from I1 on bringing troops to southern russia or not?

i think this strategy is useful for a real attack there or just for feint it. so it could be possibly make it a lot easier to go through the ukraine instead, because the russian troops have to mass in the north seeing a big attack coming.

if it successful, russia would have lost more than two thirds of its army, leaving a lot territories open to be conquered.

rock`n roll! :D

[jspeedie]

It is very interesting how a German navy can give the Germans so many options (Sealion, attacking Leningrad, attacking Russia’s north)

From reading previous topics on this board, it appears this is just another reason why Germany should buy a decent sized fleet with transports. It just gives the Germans more options, and the allies more potential places to fear a German landing.

rock’n roll I will attempt some of your suggestions next time I play a game. Sounds like it has a lot of potential! :-o

Sweet

[special forces]

@rock`n:

what do you think? is it a good idea or just waste of material?
what counter-strategies could be applied? is the building of a naval base in finland too obvious?
what specific buys for germany, the uk and for russia would you suggest? etc.
how should italy assist? from I1 on bringing troops to southern russia or not?

I think, as Gargantua said it, for Europe it is not that good, since you position your troops in the corner of the map.
Going South is probably better, also more IPC’s in territory to get there, and closer to the Middle East.

As counter strat, i suppose that avoiding blitzes in Russia’s backyard would be good, and threaten with potential counterattacks. The rest would depend on the weak spots on the eastern front, if there are any.
Russia can use some extra artillery (for counter attack threat which makes the germans have to move much more carefully, usually reducing their speed), mechs (for swift reacting to avoid blitzing tanks) and no more than a few tanks (for trading territories). For the rest: enough infantry.

Finnish naval base isn’t too obvious if you purchase it in the turn the first ships arrive there. Good idea, but not sure if it is worth it, though…

edit: as for UK… (re)building a decent fleet and taking care of Africa. Maybe also a few subs to send North? ;)

[rocknroll]

thanx for the answer! :)

i tried this only once, never perfected it. big problem is the far position of the german fleet after turn 4. but with the naval base in finland this very fleet can be big hammer, if support was bought to seazone 113 as well.

the land-baed troops get concentrated around novogorod the first 4 turns, so italy must be in romania turn 3 just for defending it. afterwards the usual german movement to the east is on being bale to join the northern army. this time with fast units, mostly mech and some tanks. a point worth to think about it, i mean. ;)

i think in alpha 2+ this can work way better than in OOB. never tried it with the new rules.

rock`n roll

[ozimek1]

@special:

Downside for Germany of the Nenetsia thing is that their fleet is totally out of position for the next 2 turns.

Note that if they take and hold Leningrad/Novgorod they will be served by a naval base and can be back in SZ112 in one move.

Edit: Sorry this came up later in the thread.

[special forces]

@ozimek1:

@special:

Downside for Germany of the Nenetsia thing is that their fleet is totally out of position for the next 2 turns.

Note that if they take and hold Leningrad/Novgorod they will be served by a naval base and can be back in SZ112 in one move.

Edit: Sorry this came up later in the thread.

Very correct, unless they only take Nenetsia :)
(and yes, a naval base in Finland can solve this)

[Endeer]

Nine transports is a huge waste of IPC in the russian theatre, if you going to attack russia i would rather just split the IPC between Tanks and Mech. Infantry. The only reason I would ever do this, would be too for-stall russia and ready troops and next turn come back and the fallowing turn drop on England with favorable odds based on the units one would buy in those turns. This also only applies to a Global game of Axis an Allies…