Strategic Bombing Raid Question

[Shadow7]

In the strategic and tactical bombing raid rules, it states that “all of the air units have attack and defense values of 1.”

While I have been playing Axis and Allies 1940 Global 2nd Edition for a while, I only recently discovered the wealth of knowledge that is collectively possessed here so I need help solving an argument I have been having in my group. I am of the opinion that the above rule means that the attacking strategic bombers (and any escorting fighters, but that is not my real question) get a @1 chance to kill the intercepting fighters just as the intercepting fighters get an @1 chance to kill the strategic bombers.  However, several of my playing companions believe this only applies to the fighters getting a chance to kill the bombers and the bombers don’t get to shoot back.

Needless to say, that can slightly change the calculus and sometimes dramatically change the results so which of us is right?  And, can you provide documentation or other source data to prove the answer?

Thanks in advance!

[barney]

The bombers hit at 1 as well. Nice that you’re here Shadow.

[baron Münchhausen]

If your fellow players ever played a Spring 1942 game (1942.1), that was the OOB SBR rule.
StB gets no attack while escorting Fgs get to roll @1.

There was other variations from the actual OOB Global rule but it is not necessary to get into the other details.

1- All attacking and defending planes roll @1.

2- Then Tactical bombers and Strategic bombers must submit to IC’s AA gun @1 per each bomber.

Latest OOB SBR rules for references and comparison:
1942.1 : AA fires against Fgs and Bmbs, then surviving Fg A1 & Bmb A0  vs Fg D2
1942.2 : Fg A1 & Bmb get A1 preemptives shots vs Fg D2, then AA fires against bombers only.
Global 1940: Fg A1, Tc Bmb A1 or Strat Bmb A1 vs Fg D1, then AA fires against bombers, both types.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30248.msg1110913#msg1110913

[Panther]

@Shadow7:

…so which of us is right?  And, can you provide documentation or other source data to prove the answer?

You are right, and you can easily convince your friends just by presenting them the rulebook:

@rulebook:

This air battle is resolved in
the same way as a normal combat, with the following
exceptions:

• The attacking bombers and fighter escorts and the
  defending fighter interceptors will be the only units
  participating in this special combat.
• The combat lasts for only one round.
• All of the air units have attack and defense values of 1.

Not only the third hyphen is relevant here, but the very first, too - here the units that are part of that battle are listed, including the attacking bombers.

[knp7765]

I have seen 2 ways to conduct SBRs in Global 40.
1 - Attacking bombers and fighter escorts roll @ 1. For each hit, a defending interceptor is placed in the casualty zone. Then all interceptors roll @ 1.

2 - Attacking bombers and fighter escorts roll @ 1. For each hit, a defending interceptor is destroyed immediately. Then any surviving interceptors roll @ 2.

So I guess it depends on which way you want to do it.

[baron Münchhausen]

@knp7765:

I have seen 2 ways to conduct SBRs in Global 40.
1 - Attacking bombers and fighter escorts roll @ 1. For each hit, a defending interceptor is placed in the casualty zone. Then all interceptors roll @ 1.

2 - Attacking bombers and fighter escorts roll @ 1. For each hit, a defending interceptor is destroyed immediately. Then any surviving interceptors roll @ 2.

So I guess it depends on which way you want to do it.

The second method is based upon 1942.2 SBR rule.
Did you play that way on Triple A? or only in F2F board game?

[knp7765]

F2F board game. I haven’t played Triple A.

I was wondering where I got the two different methods from. I thought one was possibly from one of the Alphas.
When we play, we don’t worry about it until the first SBR that involves interceptors and escorts. Then I ask everyone which version they want to play this time. Sometimes we decide on interceptors having a chance to hit back even when getting hit, other times we would rather interceptors have a higher number to hit at, even if that means attacking hits immediately destroy them.

[baron Münchhausen]

@knp7765:

F2F board game. I haven’t played Triple A.

I was wondering where I got the two different methods from. I thought one was possibly from one of the Alphas.
When we play, we don’t worry about it until the first SBR that involves interceptors and escorts. Then I ask everyone which version they want to play this time. Sometimes we decide on interceptors having a chance to hit back even when getting hit, other times we would rather interceptors have a higher number to hit at, even if that means attacking hits immediately destroy them.

The second method is far less appealing from an attacker POV.

Below you can compare both + and - : sum between OOB G40 SBR and your HR SBR based on 1942.2 SBR:

Here is the OOB ratio, of all SBR for reference:
@Baron:

So, from my last post, I can provide a simple fix to the issue of SBR being too much OP.

Apply the OOB 1942.2 escort and intercept rules while keeping the damage value of Strat Bombers and Tac Bombers.

Gives to all Fighters / Strat Bombers / Tac Bombers
Attack @1 First Strike.
Keep damage as G40 OOB: 1D6+2 for StB and 1D6 for TcB.
Fighter Defend @2.

Here is a discussion on the variant I showed in the last post.
1942.2 Strategic Bombing Raid SBR, Bombers and escorts, Interceptors vs triple A
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34118.msg1311386#msg1311386

Each escorting Fighter have preemptive first strike A1 but also gives a combined arms effect to all escorted bombers, which get A1 preemptive roll.
It only needs 1 Fighter unit amongst the attacker SBR fleet to give all bombers their preemptive strike A1.
When all by themselves, bombers only get a regular attack @1.

That’s the small variants compared to OOB 1942.2 SBR rules, giving all StBs A1 First Strike.

---

1942.2 SBR HR #1 OOB + Higher damage for StB
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor damage: 1D6+2
Sum: 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/StB run

1 StB A1 first strike vs 1 Fg D2
Sum: 4.977 - 4.778 = + 0.199 IPC damage/StB

1 StB A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: + 3.874 - 7.185 = - 3.311 IPCs damage/SBR

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: 7.554 - 7.555 = - 0.001 IPC damage/StB

2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: +9.954 - 9.556 = - 0.002 IPC damage/StB

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: + 7.639 - 5.159 = + 2.480 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: + 11.162 - 6.315 = + 4.847 IPCs damage/SBR run

1942.2 SBR House Rules #2 : StB A1 Dmg 1D6+2, gets First Strike if escorted by at least 1 Fighter
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2
Sum: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D2
Sum: + 4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: +3.704 - 7.556 = - 3.852 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike (due to combined arms with Fg escort) doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: + 7.554 - 7.564 = - 0.01 IPC damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike (due to combined arms with Fg escort) doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
Sum: + 7.639 - 5.159 = + 2.48 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
Sum: +10.639 - 7.334 = + 3.304 IPCs damage/SBR run

G40 OOB SBR:                                                 / 1942.2 SBR HR #1, OOB+ Higher damage: 1D6+2 /               1942.2 SBR HR #2
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run                                                      Same                                                              Same

1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1 damage: 1D6+2                                1 StB A1 first strike vs 1 Fg D2                            /     1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D2
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPCs damage/SBR run            +4.977 - 4.778 = + 0.199 IPC                          /   +4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPC damage/SBR run           +3.874 - 7.185 = - 3.311 IPCs damage/SBR run     / +3.704 - 7.556 = - 3.852 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run           +7.554 - 7.555 = - 0.001 IPC damage/SBR run     /  +7.554 - 7.564 = - 0.01 IPC damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run       +9.954 - 9.556 = - 0.002 IPC damage/SBR run     /  +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR run            +7.639 - 5.159 = + 2.480 IPCs damage/SBR run   /   +7.639 - 5.159 = + 2.48 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR run           +11.162 - 6.315 = + 4.847 IPCs damage/SBR run    /   +10.639 - 7.334 = +3.304 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

1942.2 OOB SBR with higher damage for StB : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor damage: 1D6+2
5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs
Sum: 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/StB run

1 StB A1 first strike vs 1 Fg D2

StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll = odds casualties

161= 6/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 3%
165= 30/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 14%

526= 60/216 StB killed by Fg: 28%
541= 20/216 StB killed by AAA: 9%
545= 100/216 both survived: 46%

Results:
Bombard on IC 130/216 = 60.185% * ((3+8 IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 3.310 IPCs
Killing Fg  36/216 = 16.667% *+10 IPC = + 1.667 IPC
StB killed 86/216 =39.815%  *-12 IPCs = - 4.778 IPCs
Sum: 4.977 - 4.778 = + 0.199 IPC damage/StB

---

1 StB A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 / damage 1D6+2

StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll = odds casualties

112/366= 72/1296 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg killed
124/361= 24/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed
124/365= 120/1296 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed

520/366= 600/1296 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
516/361= 80/1296 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
516/365= 400/1296 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC 520/1296= 40.123% * ((3+8 IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.207 IPCs
killing 1 Fg 216/1296= 16.667% +10 IPC = + 1.667 IPC
StB killed 776/1296 = 59.877%-12 IPCs = - 7.185 IPCs
Sum: + 3.874 - 7.185 = - 3.311 IPCs damage/SBR

---

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

1/3636/361/6 = 36/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .5%
1/3636/365/6 = 180/7776 no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 2.3%

10/3612/361/6 = 120/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 1.5%
10/3612/365/6 = 600/7776 1 Fg vs 1 Fg : 7.7%
10/3624/361/6= 240/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 3.1%
10/3624/365/6 = 1200/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg : 15.4%

25/364/366/6 = 600/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty : 7.7%
25/3616/361/6 = 400/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.2%
25/3616/365/6 = 2000/7776 1 Fg vs no casualty : 25.7%
25/3616/361/6 = 400/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.2%
25/3616/365/6 = 2000/7776 no casualty at all : 25.7%

Results:
Bombard on IC: 76.8% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +4.224 IPCs
Killing 2 Fgs: 2.8%+20 IPCs = + 0.56 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 27.7% +10 IPCs = + 2.77 IPCs
Fg killed: 33.4%-10 IPCs = - 3.34 IPCs
StB killed: 8.8%-12 IPCs = - 1.056 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 14.4%*-22 IPCs = - 3.168 IPCs

Sum: 7.554 - 7.555 = - 0.001 IPCs damage/StB

---

2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

1/3636/361/36 = 36/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.077%
1/3636/3610/36 = 360/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.772%
1/3636/3625/36 = 900/46656 no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 1.929%

10/3612/366/36 = 720/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 1.543%
10/3612/3630/36 = 3600/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg : 7.716%
10/3624/361/36= 240/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 0.514%
10/3624/3610/36= 2400/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 5.144%
10/3624/3625/36 = 6000/46656 no casualty vs 1 Fg : 12.86%

25/364/3636/36 = 3600/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 7.716%
25/3616/366/36 = 2400/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.144%
25/3616/3630/36 = 12000/46656 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 25.72%
25/3616/361/36 = 400/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty : 0.857%
25/3616/3610/36 = 4000/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 8.573%
25/3616/3625/36 = 10000/46656 no casualty at all : 21.433%

Results:
2x Bombard on IC: 16900/46656= 36.222% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 3.984 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC: 22360/46656= 47.925% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +2.636 IPCs
Killing 2 Fgs: 2.778%+20 IPCs = + 0.556 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 27.778% +10 IPCs = + 2.778 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 7396/46656= 15.852%-24 IPCs = - 3.805 IPCs
1 StB killed: 22360/46656= 47.925%-12 IPCs = - 5.751 IPCs

Sum: +9.954 - 9.556 = - 0.002 IPCs damage/StB

---

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2

StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

11/366/61/6= 66/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/366/65/6 = 330/1296 no casualty vs 1 Fg

25/362/61/6 = 50/1296 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/362/65/6 = 250/1296 1 Fg vs no casualty
25/364/61/6 = 100/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/364/65/6 = 500/1296 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 1080/1296 = 83.333% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.583 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 396/1296 = 30.556% +10 IPCs = + 3.056 IPCs
Fg killed: 300/1296 = 23.148%-10 IPCs = - 2.31 IPCs
StB killed: 216/1296 = 16.667%-12 IPCs = - 2 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 50/1296 = 3.858%-22 IPCs = - 0.849 IPCs

Sum: + 7.639 - 5.159 = + 2.480 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

11/366/61/36 = 66/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 0.849%
11/366/610/36 = 660/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 8.488%
11/366/625/36 = 1650/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg : 21.219%

25/362/66/36 = 300/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 3.858%
25/362/630/36 = 1500/7776 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 19.29%
25/364/61/36 = 100/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty : 1.286%
25/364/610/36 = 1000/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 12.86%
25/364/625/36 = 2500/7776 no casualty at all : 32.15%

Results:
2x Bombard on IC: 4150/7776= 53.369% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 5.871 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC: 3160/7776= 40.638% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +2.235 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 2376/7776 = 30.556% +10 IPCs = + 3.056 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 466/7776= 5.993%-24 IPCs = - 1.438 IPCs
1 StB killed: 3160/7776= 40.638%*-12 IPCs = - 4.877 IPCs

Sum: + 11.162 - 6.315 = + 4.847 IPCs damage/SBR run

This means, for instance, that according to G40 OOB SBR with all planes @1, you will have a very positive odds whether raiding with 2 StBs or 1 Fg and 1 StB against 2 interceptors: + 2.445 IPCs or + 3.639 IPCs.
With the 1942.2 SBR rules with 1d6+2 damage, both results give an even results for attacker or defender: - 0.001 IPC or -0.002 IPC.
So, when your people choose the last one rule, SBR will stay even when you keep a 1:1 ratio of bombers & Fgs over defending fighters.
For example: 3Fgs+3StBs vs 6 Fgs= 0 IPCs damage /SBR run on average.
With OOB G40 SBR, 3Fgs+3StBs vs 6 Fgs= you get 3*+2.445 (1Fg+1StB vs 2 Fgs) = + 7.335 IPCs damage /SBR run.   A big difference, don’t you think?

**[G40 OOB SBR:[/b]                                                 / 1942.2 SBR HR #1, OOB+ Higher damage: 1D6+2 /               1942.2 SBR HR #2
1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run           +7.554 - 7.555 = - 0.001 IPC damage/SBR run     /  +7.554 - 7.564 = - 0.01 IPC damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run       +9.954 - 9.556 = - 0.002 IPC damage/SBR run     /  +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR run**

[Shadow7]

Thanks for the clarification everyone.  Glad to be here with you all.