Do you prefer the dardanelles open or closed? Why and who does it favour?

[MrMalachiCrunch]

I was curious as to what other players have as experience with this issue.  Initially our group played with it closed, but recently opened it up to add an extra dimension.  As usual it produced an arms race of strategies to take advantage/parry new thinking.

If russia builds subs, then germany really can’t attack egypt for fear of losing the fleet to russian subs+air.  On the other hand, with extra fleet defense for germany the russian subs have to exit via suez canal or get smoked by a newly built DD and air.

A balance?  Germany slowed in egypt, russian weaker on land.  Britain stronger in the indian ocean with egyptian fighter and 2 land units.  When the russian subs run, a combined brit/soviet fleet with 3 subs, CC, CV + 2 fighters + bomber is not easy to push around.

Thoughts and comments?

[calvinhobbesliker]

I think it benefits the allies more since it prevents amphibious invasions of Caucusus, Ukraine, and Balkans. The subs are easily countered with a DD, and even though a DD costs more, Germany has more money and units than Russia anyway

[Make_It_Round]

This is why Italy will have strong motivation to attack Turkey in Europe '40: to open the Dardanelles and thereby threaten the Caucasus directly.

I like this tension, as it will compel the Italian player to perform a significant (and strictly unnecessary) chore in order to reap the benefits of bringing their navy to bear against the USSR.

BTW, does anybody know how many defensive units Turkey is given in the game?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Make_It_Round:

This is why Italy will have strong motivation to attack Turkey in Europe '40: to open the Dardanelles and thereby threaten the Caucasus directly.

I like this tension, as it will compel the Italian player to perform a significant (and strictly unnecessary) chore in order to reap the benefits of bringing their navy to bear against the USSR.

BTW, does anybody know how many defensive units Turkey is given in the game?

Probably 3-4

[Keredrex]

For this version i think its fine as it is… open and favors neither.  although I am gonna try a game with it closed, Im thinking the rules of it being closed also means russia can’t build and exit Sea zone 16.
maybe make it an option that once any power attempts to exit or enter it becomes an “open to all” canal.

[lozmoid]

In my games, we toss a coin for it. I prefer closed though, as that’s more historically accurate. I think having it closed favours the Allies a bit, because it protects Caucasus from amphibous assault.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Although the soviets subs are easily countered, it does buy time and if the allies can capitalize on it with an open dardanelles .  If the soviets purchase 1 maybe 2 subs and put their fighters in position to attack the german BB that would support the africa attack in G1 then the germans lose their BB and transport and might choose to NOT attack egypy, keep their navy put, shuck over to libya and reinforce their fleet to keep it.

Germany now has to think about using 2 fighters to kill the brit DD and thus not use them in the land attacks or leave it and defend against the dd and fighter that is now not dead in egypt.  The brits now can use that egypt fighter and land forces,  fully loaded brit CV and CC + bomber support and SS near Australia becomes a potent force in the indian ocean to keep the Japs at bay and away from africa.

The germans HAVE to make a choice on fleet, reinforce it or lose it on R2 and thus lose africa early.  Germany will need a CV AND a DD on G1, normally they could and perhaps should wait until G2 or G3 to purchase more Med fleet for africa control.  So, a purchase of 12 IPC of soviet fleet cause an immediate purchase of 22 IPC of german fleet and holds them off egypt and prevents the german BB from getting into action on G1 (unless it attacks the CC and I believe that to be a mistake on G1 for the BB to do this rather than air units as it also puts the transport out of position, who need troops on algeria on G1?).

I have little experience with this scenario.  Should the germans just forget about the med fleet, use it, lose it and go all out with land forces now the soviets are 12 IPC behind on land?

[Keredrex]

with russia spending on subs… germany can simply ignore africa entirely and go heavy with land and build the Northern fleet to threaten UK early … they could buy a carrier, transport, Sub and start moving there bb and transport to UK to unite the fleet.  
controlling karelia and defending Norway makes up for the income you gain in africa, and you force the UK to spend on units instead of a complex.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

I have yet to see a successful northern german fleet strategy pulled off.  Controlling Africa and say trans-jordan and madagascar represents a shift in 13 IPC, much more than norway and karellia.  I am not sure how 1 transport threatens Britain.  Britain build 8 INF, now what?  Now you get to choose to spend more money on the northern fleet that becomes a boatanchor around your neck just to protect the initial investment.  Moreover, anything that navy can do your navy in norway or karellia you can do with land forces alone.

There is NO way that BB comes through the english channel and lives.  You move it to SZ 12 on G1 and the brits or the americans sink it with either 2 ftr+bomber as the brits or cc+bomber as the americans.

[Keredrex]

@MrMalachiCrunch:

I have yet to see a successful northern german fleet strategy pulled off.  Controlling Africa and say trans-jordan and madagascar represents a shift in 13 IPC, much more than norway and karellia.

you dont have those IPC’s till later rounds… and the allies can fight for egypt to slow germany’s expansion into africa.
while holding karelia and norway is 5 they dont usually have if choosing to fight africa

@MrMalachiCrunch:

I am not sure how 1 transport threatens Britain.  Britain build 8 INF, now what?  Now you get to choose to spend more money on the northern fleet that becomes a boatanchor around your neck just to protect the initial investment.  Moreover, anything that navy can do your navy in norway or karellia you can do with land forces alone.

I said buy a transport… there is already 1 there so thats 2… and for this to work you need to sink the british battleship and transport in SZ 2. with sub, bomber, and fighter.

@MrMalachiCrunch:

There is NO way that BB comes through the english channel and lives.  You move it to SZ 12 on G1 and the brits or the americans sink it with either 2 ftr+bomber as the brits or cc+bomber as the americans.

the battleship would only move to gibraltar. when germany moves the northern fleet then you move the battleship 2 to park below britain with everything.  If britain tries to sink the bb… it can only send 2 fighters and a bomber but the fighters land in gibraltar and are not defending britain.  the allies can Block the battleship… with a US cruiser… but that means germany attacks it instead.

all this depends on other factors of course… but its possible Ive played a game with that strategy and it worked well.  Russia was trying to hold off Germany and japan… Germany was hammmering Russia by land and UK was always under threat ( a few naval battles to keep the threat alive) Britain was stuck defending the homeland… never had a chance to put a complex anywhere else… Japan was running rampant in the  pacific, taking territs in africa and asia. Because the US was forced to assist britain and russia and try to build to defend its pacific territs and turn back on japan.

[77stranger77]

I think Dardanelles open helps the Axis but don’t have a preference yet. Excluding the R1 sub gambit, the Axis is going to be the only side using z16 in almost all games. It raises the threat to Caucuses by Germany early on and potentially Japan later. Germany is able to move 2 more units/turn to Ukraine from Southern Europe while the fleet lives and it provides one more hiding place for the med fleet under threat.

So, the real issue is if a R1 sub build and its repercussions outweighs these Axis benefits. In my limited experience, the answer is no. Germany has been able to make up for their losses in Africa in Europe when I’ve attacked Egypt G1 anyhow.

[idk_iam_swiss]

If you throw Russia some ships ( not in the startup…but hey you get to use those ship molds!) it helps the Allies. Ive played that way where you give germany three more Subs but give Russia 2 destroyers in an open Dardanelles. Its a blast! would reccomend it. simply because its a different way to play.

If you dont give anything to Russia though…dont play with it! the Axis will crush you!