Subs question

[Veqryn]

ok, so you have japan attacking usa
japan has 1 sub, and 1 destroyer, and maybe other ships
usa has 1 sub, and maybe some other ships, but NO destroyers

if japan’s sub attacks and hits, and the usa player takes the hit on his submarine
does the usa’s players submarine get to fire?

the way i was taught how to play revised, because the attacker has a destroyer, and the defender doesn’t, then the defender’s sub will die to the attacker’s sub attack, and will NOT get to fire back.  however, if the defender had a destroyer, then it would get to fire back.

however, i am being told by another player, that actually the defender would get to fire back with his sub.  (so whats the point of destroyers then?)

so what is right?

[macphearsome]

I think you are correct.  If the US forces do not have a destroyer, then any hits done by your submarine are killed before they can strike back.  Of course, because you have a destroyer, his submarines do not get the same luxury.

[HolKann]

I recall that revised OOB rules weren’t very clear on this, and that the LHTR specifically stated that a destroyer only allows hit units to fire back, but they do not cancel opening fire of enemy subs. So in your case, subs on both sides do opening fire at the same time, and destroyers allow each hit unit (non-sub, cuz they already fired) to fire back. So yes, the attacking subs get to fire back.

It all depends on the definition of how your destroyer “cancels” enemy subs. I too think this is a broken rule, and I thought that Spring 1942 repaired this rule, so that a destroyer simply prevents opening fire from enemy subs, thus when hit in opening fire, a sub without opening fire because of an enemy destroyer doesn’t return fire. This is the way how you thought, and how it ought to be imho, the rules work.

[Krieghund]

Destroyers delay the removal of sub casualties, allowing them to fire back in their normal step even if they are hit by a sub.  However, both attacking and defending subs always fire in the Opening Fire step, so a defending sub will return fire even if it is hit, regardless of the presence of destroyers.  This is because fire within a step is simultaneous.  In effect, the presence of a destroyer only affects the ability of surface vessels to return fire when hit by subs.