Japan had no interest in invading Africa, they knew that UK had that on lockdown and they didn’t have the resources to do it. I am 100% sure that Japanese High Command would of double down on invading Australia over that. The idea behind controlling Indian ocean was to do two jobs. First: Close Burma Road since the Chinese were getting heavy equipment from the US. People forget the bulk of the IJA was in China and China was always the end goal for Japan. Two: Cutting the Persian trade route was more of a request from Germany. People forget that the Battle of Madagascar was the only battle during WWII that had both Germany and Japan in the same battle.
Operation Market Garden
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15. There was a fairy they Polish Paratroopers were supposed to use to meet up with the British 1st. What I have read is the fairy was missing and was later found down stream unserviceable. What would you say if we established a dock on the map? If the Germans held that space at the beginning of turn 5 the fairy was destroyed. If the space was unoccupied anyone who held that location could choose to destroy or use it like an exclusive bridge. Just taking input, I’d like to know what you think about this subject.
-LT04
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Jermofoot,
I agree it shouldn’t be a major objective. Thanks for brining this up.
16. Primary objectives will be the bridges. Secondary objectives will allow additional troop reinforcements. As of yet the only two proposed secondary objectives are for the British campaign of the 52nd reinforcements (this will be awarded topic 17) and the polish fairy crossing (15).
-LT04
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On the Polish XXX corp meet up:
I believe it was only a scout unit that ventured to the extreme left of Hell’s Highway. Something about Greyhounds comes to mind…that may have been the vehicles involved. Anyway, Hell’s Highway was bogged down as the single road in was elevated against the surrounding fields, making vehicles easy pickins’ for entrenched AT guns. The Poles didn’t meet the the main body of XXX corps.
That fairy you speak of, which I recall reading about, I think was a mapping blunder. Or weather previous to the action knocked it out. There was no sabotage involved, IIRC.
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Jermofoot,
I think that XXX Corps was in the second Army. I want to say XII Corps (???) was also in the second army and was called the Grey Hounds I’ll look into it.
-LT04
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Concerning the bridges:
The Son Bridge (101st objective) was destroyed before the Americans could capture it. You may remember the scene in A Bridge Too Far. I believe there was a secondary bridge at Veghel. That may have been more towards Nijmegen. The destruction of the Son bridge held XXX Corps substantially…they were way behind schedule.
At Arnhem, the Brits were divided. I remember a group of Engineers held the northern end of the Arnhem bridge for some time until they had to surrender. A counter attack by the Germans from the southern end with vehicles was even prevented. I do know another group reached a secondary railroad bridge, but I don’t remember if the successfully capture it or not. I’m leaning towards no…
A lot of the “iffiness” comes from playing Close Combat: A Bridge Too Far for PC way back in the day. A game you might want to pickup to get some ideas. It’s great to play anyway.
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That very game is where I got most of the layout ideas. When you choose campaign before you begin playing the game itself it has an awesome map of the whole Operation. That’s the reason I went to 4’ by 8’. It was difficult seeing specific objectives but it gave me a great over view to work with and allowed me to fill in the blanks with better detailed smaller maps.
-LT04
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Basically, I would do a “hidden objective”. Are you trying to get more troops off several road hexes? Are you trying to destroy the II SS Panzer Corps HQ? Are you trying to secure the 4 Cities (Arnhem, Eindhoven, Nimijen, and S’HertogenBosch)?
Also 9th and 10th SS Panzer were located in and around Arnhem and Fought the British Airborne.
GG
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Guerrilla Guy,
What do you mean by hidden objective? I’m still up for debate as to what the main objectives should be (topic 14). I like the idea of taking II Panzer HQ.
Thanks for the info about where the 9th and 10th Panzer locations are. Do you have any more specific information as to where they were? Were they between Arnhem and Nijmegan?
-LT04
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“The RAF coordinator refused to drop near the town itself on the north side of the target bridge because of the presence of flak guns at Deelen (Ede).” This is a quote I took from wiki.
I started looking for objective cities on Google Earth. I don’t know how much things have changed over the past 60 years but city centers can’t have moved all that much.
The following is in reguards to 52nd INF
I put Deelen in there and it sent me way South East of Eindhoven. I found out the name was later changed to Ede. It’s located North West of Arnhem past Oosterbeck. Do you think thats the potential landing site of the 52nd?
-LT04
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lost tribe,
9th SS was in Arnhem proper whereas 10th SS was in Osterbeek. Later they were stationed on the south side of the river, blocking XXX Corps from reaching Arnhem.Hidden Objectives means that the Allies get a “random” list of objectives ranked by order of importance, which the Germans will “slowly” have to discover by movement.
4 Main Objective cities are on the map, which I have already mentioned. 2 more exist, one on the German Border and Appledoorn in the north.
As far as the 52nd its definite landing point was in the Arnhem sector…
More to come…
GG
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Thanks, GG we should havea bad a** map by the time all the smoke clears.
-LT04
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GG,
What happened in Appledorrn?
-LT04
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Appledorn? Eventually liberated by the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment from Canada!
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Audacity,
So Appledorn wasn’t park of Operation Marget Garden it was part of the Canadian push after Market Garden failed.
-LT04
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15. There was a fairy they Polish Paratroopers were supposed to use to meet up with the British 1st. What I have read is the fairy was missing and was later found down stream unserviceable. What would you say if we established a dock on the map? If the Germans held that space at the beginning of turn 5 the fairy was destroyed. If the space was unoccupied anyone who held that location could choose to destroy or use it like an exclusive bridge. Just taking input, I’d like to know what you think about this subject.
-LT04
I don’t mean to pick, but I use a ferry. Unless your going to put trolls at the bridges… :wink:
On a more serious note. The 9th and 10th SS were on R&R after heavy combat. Infact I believe the 9th SS “Panzer” actualy had no tanks. Between the two divisions they had the numbers for about one full strenth div.
As for deployment, I would give the allies loose perameters and let them choose thier LZs. I would have them write them down and then have the German player deploy. Historicaly the Allied landing came in waves, so I would say the allies should get half on T1 and the other half on T3. Part of the difficulty for the Brit AB was begining thier assault and defeding their LZs for the 2nd wave.
The 9th SS had a recon unit that was a major player in both Nijmegan and Arnham so yo umay think about some scout units, they initaly started in Arnhem, but the Brits advance was stalled, so they went to Nijmegan and held that bridge before returning to Arnhem where the Brit AB stopped them at the Bridge.
Also due to communication problems and planning snafu’s the Germans enjoyed initiative through out the battle, which is historicly unusual for an AB operation.
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I am saying if you want to sway from the traditional objectives add Appledoorn. Market Garden is a one minded operation, get up that road and turn right… I have always wondered, what would happened if the objective was ultimately to turn left (Antwerp)… Any number of scenarios can be created, depending on the size of your map. If it is mainly focused on the operational areas then disregard Appledoorn. I would suggest along with Jermofoot to pick up Close Combat: A Bridge Too Far. I still play it occasionally, even despite its interface innacuracies (Panzerfausts have extended ranges, Infantry panic mid street and attempt to crawl, etc.) it supplied me with a lot of background looking into the operation area.
As a sideline, I’m not sure if you know this, but the end goal of Op Market Garden was to swing into the Rhine Valley and Destroy the 3rd Reich’s Industry…
Dzrt, actually 9th SS Panzer did have some Heavy Tanks, but they came in on the 19th I believe… It is true they were both Half Strength though… There "strength came from “Kampfgruppe’s” organized from Ad Hoc Units thrown together from the Allied Rampages in Normandy and France at large. And I would agree, Com plays a large part in the battle… Whether hidden info is implemented, or you have die +/- factoring find a way to implement Com…
GG
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I think the british com issues are most easily handled with an initiative bonus to the Germans.
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Yes! I couldn’t agree more… Impulse move for each sector would definitely make the gameplay better, adding that element into it that you don’t get with just straight “Market Garden”…
GG
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Hey,
I understand why we can’t just tell the British player take this DZ by this turn for reinforcements b/c then the German player would also be aware of this and try to stop this form happening when chances are they may or may not have ever knew about it in the first place.
I like the idea of keeping the primary objectives the same and mixing up the secondary objectives. I had an idea that we should put the secondary objectives on cheap business cards I can make on the computer shuffle them up and have allied players pick so many. This way the German player will really have no idea what the allies are trying to secure.
I know the ferry idea historically didn’t work out and it had nothing to do with the German or Allied players, but it looks like we might want to throw it in as a secondary objective if we run short of other ideas.
As far a DZ go I like you idea of leaving them up to the allied player. I think we should set some rules for example they can only land in open spaces (for obvious reasons) that way we can limitedly funnel them into a general area by placing city, or forest spaces without telling them where they have to land specifically.
I like you idea of swaying away from the traditional objectives and having them move to Appledoorn or Antwerp. I wonder if that’s such a good idea if we make this accurate the British 1st will be the only ones who can reach it and they will have their hands full. If you have a proposal let me know.
I’m still looking for a good map of Eindhoven. If any one comes a cross one let me know. I went to Googel Earth and I found the Lower Rhine, and Waal rivers but Maas doesn’t show up. Even if it did I’m still unsure of where 101st landed in or around it.
Thanks for all the help,
-LT04
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One of the great aspects of gaming is the ability to play the same or closely similar scenarios through several times. Once you get this map sorted out I’d plan to use it several times.
The history as I understand it was that Market Garden was extremely linear and places like Apledorn were not in the plans. Obviously it was liberated later in the war. Playing alternate scenarios could change this.
I’d play the first couple of versions trying to maintain realism of objectives from history while putting in secondary secret objectives for game play.
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